Curse

TaiClaw · Sep 18, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Hey all, just thought I would share my latest build which I have been testing over the past few days.

As the name suggests, it's a shutdown build, something that will render your opponent useless, hopefully for aslong as possible or until dead.

1. Disrupting Stab <-- Lead
2. Temple Strike <-- Off Hand
3. Exhausting Assault <-- Dual Attack
4. Jagged Strike <-- Lead
5. Wild Strike <-- Off Hand

The above should be done in numerical order, after Wild Strike the enemy will be pretty much defenseless, stack another Exausting Assault on.

6. Dash <-- Optional, personal preferance
7. Deaths Charge <-- Optional, personal preferance
8. Healing Breeze <-- Optional, personal preferance

Explanation of use: This is a build to primarily shut down an opponent to a point where they cannot attack or heal. Ideally in a 3v3 or 4v4 situation, you would seek out a monk/mesmer/necro or ele. I have chosen Deaths Charge purely because running to your enemy is one of the most dangerous situations in a fight, as your most likely the first to be targetted.

So Deaths Charging to the enemy after your group has engaged will increase your chance at surviving the initial encounter. Once at the enemy, wait untill they begin casting a spell before using your lead attack, as Disrupting Stab will interupt it, and shut it down. Then continue on with 2-5. Jagged Strike is chosen here for 3 reasons, its a low cost , fast recharge attack, it applies 9 seconds of bleeding and it covers up Temple Strike if the enemy removes a condition.

As stated above, after Wild Strike you may choose to follow on with Exhausting Assault again, best case scenario is that you succesfully applied your first EA aswell as your second, as the Exhausting effect does stack up to a maximum of 10.

6-8 are all optional, you may choose to take points from healing prayers and stack them into Shadow Arts and replace Healing Breeze with Shadow Refuge, 6-8 are your choice.

The 2 Primary Attributes used are:

Dagger Mastery; 12+3+1 =16
Critcal Strikes; 11+2 =13

The rest can be spread out as you please.

Whilst I have tested this build, and I am satisfied the way it is in it's current form, I am open to suggestions on improving it, because no build is perfect. So please feel free to comment or flame.

*edit*
Forgot to add, I am using full shrouded armour with +5 Energy Zelous daggers. So I havent tested this with the standard 25 Energy Assassin. I would imagine it would be quite energy draining. Take this into consideration.

pve-er · Sep 18, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

nice build, good for small aggro or PvP, beware of large aggro
+5 Energy Zealous Dagger is the best for most Sin, small percentage of damage bonus (Sundering, barb, crual....) do nothing for us, you need all the enegy

SAPhoenix · Sep 18, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

I've run a similar build to this, but not with a sin. I ran it on my ranger instead because of energy management probs. But you can be pretty relentless in pressuring casters with it, using a pair of zealous daggers. Plus, I also had access to Whirling Defense if I needed some breathing room. The only thing that might screw you over is a CoP monk, but everything else is gg.

Death's Charge is meant to get you to your target before they can react. But you better have a backup plan after you've disposed of your target. It is hardly going to increase your chances of survival unless you have Recall (or can use Return) on a caster in the rear. Most times, sins are the last to be targeted in a 4v4 situation as there are usually other targets that the opposition prefers to focus on (This of course depends on the team you are with and which classes they are using). Imagine this scenario: You Death's Charge to a monk, unleash your combo, they use CoP and now you're right in the thick of the mob, completely defenseless, and even if you have Dash, they can just snare you and dispose of you. Running to your target isn't dangerous if they already have their hands full with your team mates.

Here's a possible suggestion. Use the recently improved Shadow of Haste with a stance cancel (like Dark Escape), go after your target, if things get hectic, just stance cancel to safety. If you use Dark Escape as a stance cancel, for instance, and someone comes after you, at least you'll only be taking half damage from them for the duration of the stance, plus you are still mobile due to the speed boost.

Also, if this is PvP support, you'll likely need to slot in a res sig in there somewhere.

Other than that, it's a solid build for caster shutdown, but IMO, better on a ranger than on a sin, just due to the energy management, ESPECIALLY if you plan to pressure with it.

TaiClaw · Sep 18, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAPhoenix

I've run a similar build to this, but not with a sin. I ran it on my ranger instead because of energy management probs. But you can be pretty relentless in pressuring casters with it, using a pair of zealous daggers. Plus, I also had access to Whirling Defense if I needed some breathing room. The only thing that might screw you over is a CoP monk, but everything else is gg.

Death's Charge is meant to get you to your target before they can react. But you better have a backup plan after you've disposed of your target. It is hardly going to increase your chances of survival unless you have Recall (or can use Return) on a caster in the rear. Most times, sins are the last to be targeted in a 4v4 situation as there are usually other targets that the opposition prefers to focus on (This of course depends on the team you are with and which classes they are using). Imagine this scenario: You Death's Charge to a monk, unleash your combo, they use CoP and now you're right in the thick of the mob, completely defenseless, and even if you have Dash, they can just snare you and dispose of you. Running to your target isn't dangerous if they already have their hands full with your team mates.

Here's a possible suggestion. Use the recently improved Shadow of Haste with a stance cancel (like Dark Escape), go after your target, if things get hectic, just stance cancel to safety. If you use Dark Escape as a stance cancel, for instance, and someone comes after you, at least you'll only be taking half damage from them for the duration of the stance, plus you are still mobile due to the speed boost.

Also, if this is PvP support, you'll likely need to slot in a res sig in there somewhere.

Other than that, it's a solid build for caster shutdown, but IMO, better on a ranger than on a sin, just due to the energy management, ESPECIALLY if you plan to pressure with it.

Too some extent I agree with what you have stated, although I never said this works 100% of the time, ofcourse things can and will go wrong (like all builds). Usually, once a group notices im wailing on there healer, they will turn to attack me instead, so whether or not I run away or recall away, there still going to come after me. If I have to sacrifice myself too take out there healer, then in my eyes I have done my job.

And regarding the whole Ranger thing, sure they "may" be able to do it better than an Assassin, though you wouldnt reroll just to do so, nor would you give up trying to improve the build.

SAPhoenix · Sep 18, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaiClaw

And regarding the whole Ranger thing, sure they "may" be able to do it better than an Assassin

I'm not really trying to promote the whole R/A thing by what I've mentioned, but I'm simply saying that from an energy management perspective, you'd be better off playing pressure with a ranger primary using this build, as opposed to a sin primary.

Also, at 16 Dagger Mastery you're doing a lot more damage with your daggers than a ranger would be, so it's a fair tradeoff if you're just looking to do quick bursts on targets (similar to a spike combo) leaving them incapacitated while the rest of the group takes care of them. Your Temple Strike effect will also last longer, so there are pros and cons to both primaries. One is near constant spammable pressure, whereas the other is damaging shutdown, not really constant pressure, but effective in shutting down a single target before moving on to the next one, if need be, or retreating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaiClaw

Usually, once a group notices im wailing on there healer, they will turn to attack me instead, so whether or not I run away or recall away, there still going to come after me

If the opposition comes after you because you made an attempt on their monk and succeeded, that means that you have dented their morale and they percieve you as a threat. Usually in this case, your team mates can actually have their way with them, because they are no longer focused on their objectives as a team, but on taking you out. If the opposition loses focus due to something that you did and you become primary target no. 1, then your team will have it easy. So its not really all that bad actually. Especially if you have a monk backing you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaiClaw

If I have to sacrifice myself too take out there healer, then in my eyes I have done my job.

Sacrificing yourself to aid your team also has pros and cons. I'm leaning more towards the con side of things here. If you succeed in taking out a monk on the opposing team and do so while dying in the process, you're left with a DP, which can very easily make you a liability, rather than an asset to your team. The opposition now knows that you are a threat, and as they've succeeded in taking you out before, they will have no problem doing so now that you have a DP. They will also go to great lengths to ensure that their revived monk is defended. Now you're out of the picture and your team has to continue on without you.

As a sin player, its usually a better idea to back off when the going gets tough, as opposed to sticking around just to secure your kill, dying in the process. Even with a good monk backing you, that monk is forced to focus more on you than on the other members of your team. If you fire off a short burst, and the opposition focuses on you, provided you have a backup plan, you can really screw them over mentally (they might come after you and your team can take advantage of it). But if you have no backup plan, you're easy pickings and simple to dispose of. By backup plan, I'm obviously referring to some form of shadow step that takes you away from the action instead of leaving you smack in the middle of it. That in itself improves your chances of survival and your chances of being successful in your attempts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaiClaw

though you wouldnt reroll just to do so, nor would you give up trying to improve the build.

I agree that I wouldn't reroll just because a build is theoretically better on another class, nor would it deter me from trying to improve on it to suit my class. I like the build and I know how effective it can be. It's the energy management that ultimately determines the usefulness and effectiveness of said build with regard to the ranger and the sin. Both can utilize it well. One is just more pressure-orientated, the other quick incapacitation that has to manage it's energy a bit more.

If I want to pressure, I use the ranger. If I want to spike (obviously not with this build, I just prefer to spike in general), I use the sin. It's nice being able to shut down a caster with this, but as a sin player, I'd rather just spike a target, bugger off and rinse and repeat. For a sin, even though it can be done, pressuring just falls short of the spiking potential the class has at its disposal. I think you'll agree with me that this is more of a pressure build than it is a damage build. Damage, quite simply, is what the sin is all about.

The pressure build that has been done with great success (as you post at gwonline as well, I'm sure you're familiar with the Flourish build) utilizes Flourish to pressure constantly without any energy management problems. Siphon Speed and Black Lotus Strike, Flourish to recharge, rinse and repeat. It requires the backing of a monk to be effective, but it is still quite lethal. The only potential flaws with your build (in terms of attack skills) as opposed to this one is that you can't instantly recharge your attacks and energy management can become a problem. Sure, the attacks don't instantly recharge on a ranger either, but energy management isn't a problem. That is the deciding factor between the 2.

I'm definitely behind you 100% to continue to tweak and improve upon the build. Chances are you'll have a real winner on your hands soon enough

seven · Sep 18, 2006, 12:11 PM // 12:11

if you like, you can try switching to falaharn's or kaolins to get an additional 33% daze duration just as you are about to use TS, then switch back to your regular daggers.

Kais Unduli · Sep 18, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

I'm gonna try this out with nightstalkers armor, see how that goes. Maybe the extra armor will let you get in your spike and exit before the damage becomes too much.

TaiClaw · Sep 18, 2006, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kais Unduli

I'm gonna try this out with nightstalkers armor, see how that goes. Maybe the extra armor will let you get in your spike and exit before the damage becomes too much.

I would certainly appreciate it if you re-post here what you though about the build, as I havent tried it in anything other than Shrouded with +5 Energy Daggers.

Like I said in my OP , it may become a bit draining of energy, as Temple Strike is 15 Energy, and the main attack of the build.

SAPhoenix, I appreciate your comments. ^-^

narud · Sep 19, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

take recall instead of dash, you wont have a problem running up to your target, and if you do you recall out. I would prefer running aod with a quick kill combo instead of wasting elite for pressure when spike can be more effective. This build does however have its perks but there are too many holes, all around it should work OK.

Cowboy Nastyman · Sep 19, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

one thing to note, exhausting assault will not add exhaustion if they are dazed, the easily interrupt takes priority over the skills interrupt and effect.

TaiClaw · Sep 19, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowboy Nastyman

one thing to note, exhausting assault will not add exhaustion if they are dazed, the easily interrupt takes priority over the skills interrupt and effect.

Yes, I forgot to mention this in the OP, thanks for bringing it up though. Regardless, Exhausting Assault still acts as 1 of 3 interrupt skills that play in succession. Still unsure whether Exhausting Assault can be applied first, and then have Daze applied after and have both effects at once.

*edit* Exhausting Assault does not just Interrupt spells, it also interrupts any skill, yet only applies Exhausting if a spell is interrupted.

SAPhoenix · Sep 19, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaiClaw

SAPhoenix, I appreciate your comments. ^-^

Thanks, and I appreciate (and applaud) your wanting to deviate from the norm somewhat with this build. It's always refreshing to come across something that is effective on a sin that ISN'T a spike combo *lol*

Lambentviper · Sep 20, 2006, 01:45 AM // 01:45

woot this looks awefully similair to my shutdown sin!!

Here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...10#post1443110

Desires · Sep 20, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

For support Shut Down sin I like Siphon Str/Blackout ect. 16 deadly arts 10 dom rest in shadow.

Evilsod · Sep 20, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by pve-er

nice build, good for small aggro or PvP, beware of large aggro
+5 Energy Zealous Dagger is the best for most Sin, small percentage of damage bonus (Sundering, barb, crual....) do nothing for us, you need all the enegy

Losing out on 15% damage is never justified. Do you run Fire Magic at lvl13 and say "It'll do, i can run higher E-storage"?

It might be better dropping Wild Strike. Beyond Dark Escape off monks its utterly useless really since it misses so much. Maybe Expunge Enchantments?

SAPhoenix · Sep 20, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Including Expunge Enchantments would be adding a 10 energy req skill to an already energy-intensive build. It would also screw him over if he needed to heal or use a speed-up stance like Dash, as it disables non-attack skills. Wild Strike should stay where it is. Or, it could be replaced with Fox Fangs. That's how I used it on my ranger. No chance of Fox Fangs missing, unless the lead doesn't connect, and he has 2 leads.